I recently noticed that when I put together my Khorne Daemonkin lists I tend to gravitate towards the Bloodletters as Troop choices - this I find odd as I would normally never touch them if playing from the Chaos Daemons codex. So I decided to do some comparisons with the other Troop choices from the new Khrone codex and attempt to find a logical reason for my Bloodletter madness.
I'm going to start by jumping right into the comparisons and focus on the most important characteristics like cost effectiveness, special rules and usefulness for utilizing the Blood Tithe game mechanic.
Chaos Cultists
"We live and die for our Lord and Master Khorne. Mostly die."
CharacteristicsStraight Imperial Guard infantry stats but with a worse armor save.
Wargear
A pistol and a close combat weapon. Option to upgrade to an auto gun (LOL).
Special Rules
Mark of Khorne, BFTBG!
Blood Tithe
The Champion comes with the unit automatically and has a Leadership of 8. Not exactly blowing my skirt up when I have a 28% chance of failing a Leadership check to summon a Prince or Bloodthirster with Blood Tithe. But the champion does give you the option to attempt to do so.
As far as challenges go he won't win many but he still banks you a Blood Tithe point when he dies in a challenge so that is good.
Cost Effectiveness
Cultists lost some of their cost effectiveness due to the points tax for Mark of Khorne and BFTBG! special rule. As far as taxes go those are not bad! But you can't spam as many cheap Cultists in this codex as you could before. Overall, these are still a good buy as cheap throw away infantry and backfield objective sitters. They can also net you a quick Blood Tithe point when a unit gets wiped so minimal Cultist units are probably the best for cost effectiveness.
Chaos Space Marines
"We fight for millennium to harvest skulls of those whom we murder - all in the name of the Blood God."
Space Marine norm.
Wargear
Bolt gun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades.
Some options to get special weapons and close combat weapon, same old stuff.
Special Rules
Mark of Khorne, BFTBG!
Blood Tithe
The Champion comes with the squad and he isn't a slouch like a Cultist champion so he could rack up Blood Tithe points for winning challenges, maybe. The big deal to take away here is that the champion has a 9 Leadership thus making him more reliable than a Cultist champ on passing a Leadership check to summon a Prince/Bloodthirster.
Cost Effectiveness
The Khorne Chaos Marines come with a 1 point tax which isn't all that bad, it nets two special rules for that price. The bad thing is that you can't go minimal, you have to start your unit at 8 models just like all the other Khorne Troop selections. Add in a Rhino and you are already more than 3/4 on the way to 200 points. Considering that Chaos Marines are about the price of normal Space Marines and do not have And They Shall Know No Fear and considering that two other Khorne Troop choices are Fearless it seems that Chaos Marines sadly still suffer from the problems of the previous codex. They are still not cost effective choices.
Khorne Berzerkers
"Kill, murder, maim! As if chattel for the slaughter butcher all whom stand in our way then lay their still bloodied skulls at the feet of Khorne!"
Characteristics
Space Marine norm but with WS 5.
Wargear
Bolt pistol, close combat weapon, frag/krak grenades.
Some options like Icon of Wrath, plasma pistols and chain axes (what a joke).
Special Rules
Fearless, Furious Charge, Mark of Khorne, BFTBG!
Blood Tithe
Just like with the Chaos Space Marines the champion has the potential to rack up some Blood Tithe points in challenges (even more so) and he is a good sacrifice for the Prince/Bloodthirster with Leadership 9.
Berzerkers are melee specialists and so if they can get the charge off in melee they can wreak some havoc and have the potential to harvest some Blood Tithe points by killing other units, more so than Chaos Marines or Cultists.
Cost Effectiveness
Happily Berzerkers do not pay an additional tax for BFTBG! but they are still a tad on the pricey side despite all the good stuff you get. They are almost twice the price of a Bloodletter but are also twice as robust with a 3+ save. Fearless is great to have, equalizing the field against loyalist marines.
Khorne Berzerkers look great on paper but they still suffer from that one big problem: getting them into combat quickly and safely. Berzerkers have two options, both pricey, the Land Raider and he Dreadclaw. Otherwise, they have to deal with riding in a Rhino and not able to assault until a turn after they disembark. I like the Dreadclaw option myself, the middle of the road choice.
Overall, it's not very cost effective to bring a bunch of Berzerkers to a game. Perhaps one squad would be good for a shock troop unit but you need to make sure they can get into assault, not get shot at a lot and they need to be the ones doing he charging or they lose a major advantage with Furious Charge.
Bloodletters
"Blood and skulls! Our only purpose."
Characteristics
Like a Space Marine but with WS 5, T 3, Ld 7 and armor 6+/5++.
Wargear
Hellblade (AP 3)
Special Rules
Fearless, Daemon of Khorne, Deep Strike, Mark of Khorne, BFTBG!
Blood Tithe
You can upgrade a model into a Blood Reaper (character) for a mere 5 points and I would hardily recommend this option so you can challenge and get more Blood Tithe points. With a WS 5 and AP 3 the Blood Reaper has a good chance to win/tie some challenges. Unfortunately, because the models are daemons Blood Reapers can not be used to turn into a Prince/Bloodthirster.
If you can get your Bloodletters into combat they can kill some units (like Marines) for Blood Tithe points but they aren't so good against hordes, 2+ saves or decent Invulnerable saves.
Cost Effectiveness
For the cost (2/3 of a Marine) the Bloodletter is not a bad bargain but not all that great either. They have a great killing tool with the AP 3 Hellblade but will suffer if involved in prolonged fights because they have a glass jaw with T 3 and Sv 5++. That is their weakness, they don't have staying power. Focused shooting can wreak them quickly so you have to use terrain to your advantage.
If Bloodletters didn't have Deep Strike and Fearless I would have to say that they would not be cost efficient, but because they do that makes them more mobile and keeps them on the board despite taking losses. They aren't a great unit, maybe not even all that good, but they are decent for the price you pay for them in this codex.
Conclusion
Chaos Cultists are nice and cheap but won't win you any combats, they are cannon fodder. They will net you a Blood Tithe when the unit is destroyed.
Chaos Space Marines are still the redheaded stepchild, not having Fearless hurts a lot, but they are still useful. It is hard to justify taking many of them when you have cheaper alternatives. But they are worth consideration just for the champion in case you want to sack him for a Prince/Bloodthirster.
Khorne Berzerkers can be good butchers in the right circumstances but too costly to field in big numbers.
Bloodletters seem to be in that 'just right' zone for me, not to costly and middling to good at combat, at least for this codex anyway. The biggest selling point is Fearless (a buff) and the ability to Deep Strike so I can place them wherever they are needed most on the battlefield. They can also fight, quite well against the right opponents, but beware of their glass jaw.
What do you guys think?
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I've come to pretty much the same conclusion with my Daemonkin force. The Dreadclaw option initially looked good, until I noticed I'd spent roughly 1/3 of my entire points on the allied detachment to access them for very little killing power. Also, sitting aboard an AV12 vehicle for one turn prior to assaulting is an invitation to getting blasted. Sure they could jink, but most well built armies have an Ignores Cover alternative to get around that (Serpentspam a whole army worth of it in fact).
ReplyDeleteBloodletter squads on the other hand are a fraction of the cost and allow for just spending points on more units. Even if they get killed you're still netting tithe points.
I think the trick is dangling a greater threat in the opponents face to draw fire and buy time for the Bloodletters to charge the turn after materializing. Flesh Hounds fill that role beautifully in Chaos Daemon lists and they do so even better in the Daemonkin list. Add to that three or four Soul Grinders backed up by an allied Predator with the 1st War of Armaggedon Legacy of Ruin (from IA13) throwing out a +1 inv. save to Khorne Daemons within 6" (who'd have guessed THAT would've ever become useful?) and you have a threat that CANNOT be ignored and can both take and mete out some punishment.
Ooooh never knew about the predator! Nice find!
DeleteI just love bloodletters. I wish they were T4 and the crushers T5. Then all would be well :)
Thanks Greg! It doesn't have to be a Predator, but I found it's the most cost effective chassis to put it on. Tried it on a Land Raider, but they're just too many points and a Pred. draws about the same level of firepower. A Sicaran would probably be better, but I can't afford one right now...not after buying 40 Flesh Hounds! LOL
DeleteI settled on an Infernal Relic Predator with Plasma Destructor and it's been pretty instrumental in dealing with Mega-armour Nobz, Wolf Guard and other 2+ sv units that ranged Soul Grinder fire has issues with.
Totally agree on the Bloodcrushers my friend. Not after experiencing their previous 3+ save incarnation. I know BlackBlowFly swears by 'em, but meh, I just think Hounds are a better deal. I just wish they were plastic!
Could you use plastic hounds from a different game system? I can't remember offhand, but I know some people used wargs ? I can't quite remember.
DeleteMmm...relic predator. I just got a sicaran myself, after waiting years to get one (got it at adepticon). Boy is it a beauty. I was going to do a first templars/fists army for 30k/40k, but now I got a itch for khorne. :)
Thank you for reminding me that the Khorne codex has to ally to get a Dreathclaw, I had forgotten about that. Allies only dilute the ability to gain Blood Tithe so I don't like adding them.
DeleteThe Legacy of Ruin tidbit is intriguing, I may have to playtest this out with my Maulerfiends. Do you have to run CSM allies to get that LoR special rule?
You're welcome!
DeleteYeah, like accessing the Dreadclaw, currently only "Chaos Space Marine Armies" can take Legacies. I'm hoping Forgeworld clears this up to allow Daemonkin Armies (which I suspect they'll call the Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh variants "Daemonkin" as well) to access unique vehicles and Legacies also. For now though you have to take an Allied Detachment of Chaos Space Marines to do so.
Fortunately, an allied Troop unit of Cultists (with ObSec) is only 50 points and a stock Sorceror with Malefic is only 60 base so it doesn't set you back too much.
It's too bad you can't take LoR on units with Daemon, or Possession though. So no Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, Defilers or Heldrakes. It has to be a mundane tank (Pred, Vindi, Raider, Sicaran, etc.) or walker (Helbrute, Contemptor).
The biggest advantage I see for letters is icons and instruments, so you have effective reserves manipulation.
ReplyDeleteI'm one of those few who likes Chaos Marines. They're looked down upon but I find them to be a work horse. Bolters are still a great weapon. Getting dual special weapons is damn nice. No Fearless sucks but they have reasonable leadership anyway. With the mark they aren't slouches either. Certainly not a true close combat unit but capable if needed. I usually run two units of these guys and it works out well for me.
ReplyDeleteI also prefer CSM over Bloodletters. Rhinos keeps you safe, for a time, and is a 35pt objective secured unit. The Rhino gives you constant mobility where Deep Strike is a one-time deal. It's also a great unit for parking on an objective where with Bloodletters you need to be moving at the enemy, not hanging around camping. I have plenty of other units to throw at the enemy while my CMS maneuver around where needed.
I still use Bloodletters but not as my core troop choice. Taken in mass, and with plenty of other threats, Bloodletters will do well, no arguing. I just like the diversity that CSM bring and think they get crapped on too much.
One tactic I have used in the past and will be using again with KDK is to run the Berzerkers behind their rhinos, giving them mobile cover. If your opponent destroys the rhino thats ok, because it will give you a tithe point ala BftBG special rule. Used in conjunction with the fast moving Flesh Hounds, the Berzerker should be a clean up unit for anything that the dogs don't wipe out themselves.
ReplyDeleteI also do this. Great minds think alike :)
DeleteThe other reason I do it is for the 35pt objective secured unit. Zoom it off to snag an objective if needed or cover Zerkers. It's dual purpose!
Ah, this reminds me of the days right after 6th hit and we couldn't charge after disembarking anymore. I ran my CSM army with a wall of Rhinos, a wall nearly across half the table with the chaos marines running behind them. Heh, made for some goofy games.
DeleteI'm really leaning towards running the Blood Host detachment rather than a normal CAD. With the extra tithe point each turn and also the extra reward from the Boon of Khorne granted by the Slaughtercult it should allow me to keep FNP and +1 attack up for most of the game once the killing begins.
DeleteThis does mean that I'll be giving up obj-sec on the troops, but I don't see my army being troop based anyhow. I will be focusing on Flesh Hounds, Bikers, and Maulerfiends to rush the enemy while the rest of the army cleans up after them and grabs objectives.
Barghest Fiends from pupetwars make the best Flesh Hounds!
ReplyDeletehttp://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=259
Speaking of Legacies, there's one thaat lets Icon of Wrath units get FNP; add that to a 2nd raider full of zerks and you have daemons and zerks both getting amazing benefits
ReplyDeleteHey Warboss, in which book is that legacy rule? It sounds very intriguing.
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